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Post by Con on May 21, 2019 23:58:44 GMT
Oh I'm sure there's a science here. There's a science to ghosts and spirits, I can say that for certain, so there's going to be one for these guys too. What sort of science is something we don't know yet, but I'd like to figure that out. That being said, I think the sad tale of Timothy Treadwell is a lesson to just about anyone dealing with anything out in the wilds, cryptid related or not. You've got to take extreme care when dealing with things like these. Dogmen may or may not be sapient but either way leaves plenty of room for there to be some really bad encounters. But if we can figure them out, like spirits and ghosts, we can find solutions to the problems, might also save a few lives too.
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Post by Isk8pdfrmalab on May 23, 2019 13:09:12 GMT
It's a valid point. There must be some way to communicate, even if it is rudimentary or on a empathy based framework, such as how humans and canines understand one another (working dogs, police k9, pets, etc).
Another thing to consider is that comms have already been established for centuries, and that there are rules, or limits that must be observed. By example, recall the many encounters of dogmen chasing people, yet refraining from killing them. Why? Also, that they have an interest in watching children, tapping windows at night, etc. Why? What does this tell us?
This next statement is out there but, here goes...
What if comms are something to be kept secret, held only by the person summoning the canid, in order to bring this thing into our reality? Yes, I speak of rituals and spell craft that I know knothing about (nor do I want to), but it seems to me that there is definitely an element of black magic to these things, and thus my thought is that comms is probably done by proxy, in ways we nerds just cannot (and most likely SHOULD not) attempt.
By this I mean it's probably done in the same context as speaking with the dead. Yes there are people who can do it, yes it is weird and refuted and mocked but it's been happening for centuries and no one is going to stop it anytime soon. Real? Well, these people are speaking with ... Something.
My studies on this cryptid lead me to conclude (perhaps incorrectly), that these creatures can and do already communicate with people, and it's been happening a long time already. It's just probably done in a form or context involving rituals and ancient, forbidden mojo that the average bloke has no business messing with.
The account of the grave digging canid, who said "Gadarra" or something similar, is particularly interesting, but again places these things squarely in a negative turf. It would be such a leap to learn more about them, but not if taking up necromancy is a prerequisite.
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Post by Con on May 23, 2019 20:12:01 GMT
Interesting point to make about there already being some communications. Who's to say it's only black magic stuff though? There could be way more at work here, not just dark stuff but possibly ancient stuff as well. Old religions that date back to our early ancestors tens of thousands of years ago could have ways of communication with these guys too. I agree though, I don't touch anything related to black magic stuff. I don't believe in necromancy or demons myself, but I still wouldn't touch any of it, just on the off chance that it's actually real, I don't want that stuff coming back to haunt me literally.
On the point of communication with people, yeah, if Dogmen are real I'm almost totally certain that there's groups of people all around the world in contact, verbally or otherwise, with these things. People can do it with spirits, even ghosts can do it with people by making noises and getting someone's attention, so it stands to reason stuff like that could happen with these guys too. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if you could be best buds with these guys assuming they're sapient. That'd be something to see, though I don't think I want to know the prerequisites for becoming a dogman's BFF though lol
That's a good point on dogmen chasing but not killing. My thoughts on that are that they have certain societal laws that they follow, plus it could be that they see us as people too, and maybe killing other people isn't exactly great in their world either. I wouldn't be surprised if they see us as beneath them though. They do seem to have an interest in children, but they practically look after the kids from what I've heard, returning them hours or days later unharmed. I find that odd, who'd think a creature as terrifying as that could be so gentle and caring?
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Post by ISK8pdFrmaLab on May 24, 2019 5:57:28 GMT
Caring and gentle? With kids? Human kids?
Whaaat? For real?
I have not come across any data in that area. What did you find?
A few months ago I read of a missing boy who, after being found, said that a bear had slept with him. Or something like that. I need to look into that again for updates.
I am curious what you found; every encounter I read has dogmen behaving like a stalker around kids, so I assume they lure, ambush and give kiddies a one way ticket to David Paulides land.
Cloaked Hedgehog posted some translated news accounts from Brazil that made my teeth grind, you can find her on YouTube, but fair warning, the Brazil accounts peg dogmen as child killers, flat out.
Are there accounts of kids being treated well by dogmen? Kids or otherwise?
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Post by Con on May 24, 2019 10:01:33 GMT
There's been more than one account of kids being looked after by these guys.
A girl went missing temporarily whilst her and her dad were out in the woods. She told of a big bear who gave her berries and kept her warm, then left as soon as the dad came back with a bunch of hunters,
There's another case similar to that where a little boy also went missing for a while, had a similar situation happen but (I think) was taken to a den of these guys and was released later.
Then there's the more recent case here that you mentioned of the little boy who said a bear looked after him. It was in the dead of winter when bears would be hibernating, so I doubt it was a bear, and he was missing for nearly 3 days. The rescuers found him alive and well, being mostly hydrated and somewhat fed as well I think. He was found in a bramble thicket where he couldn't have gotten in himself, so it would appear that he was placed there so as not to run away again.
I'm sure there's got to be cases where these guys are bad too, like you mentioned in Brazil. If they're sapient like us, that leaves a lot of room for the bad as well as the good. Humans aren't all that nice either, but the amount of cases where these guys could have stolen away or killed a kid and didn't is really odd. It's like they try and chase you away from areas as if you're an interloper.
There's a few Dogman encounters episodes where they interact with the dogman as kids and the dogman doesn't do anything. That one where the guy had a dogman pup creep into the tent with him whilst he was a boy scout, the episode with Beth who kept seeing that dogman and became acquaintances with it. There was another one where the woman recounts being taken by these things, ended up in a den and one of the dogmen basically shooed her away by making a gesture with it's arms like we would.
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Post by murphy338 on Aug 17, 2019 18:31:02 GMT
I have to agree with you guys in that I don't believe that Dogmen are good or bad... they simply are being who they are both on a species level and an individual level just like humans. Most humans probably associate them with evil because 1. They didn't know that they existed and associate them with werewolves 2. Dogmen are massive and humans are quite small and weak in comparison and 3. we are looking at an apex predator which is quite possibly the greatest hunter to have lived on Earth since the dinosaurs. Also the frequency thing, I'm not an engineer (yet) nor a quantum scientist but I have been studying a bit about these things and I do agree that every living thing has a frequency and vibration. As for communicating with them, I think geometry would be an interesting take. We have heard accounts on how they sometimes make gifts for people by making geometric items out sticks and then tied together with yarn and stuff. However, I was thinking about another form of communication. On a few different accounts I heard that they actually appreciate music. One guy used to go out into the forest and play his guitar for them and they would listen in the trees nearby. My friend who claims he had numerous experiences in Colorado with them also stated that they enjoy our music and singing voices. I've never heard of the witnesses saying they heard the dogmen actually speak like a human does but if they are capable that is pretty incredible. Honestly I was thinking about sign language. I think they are very capable with their hands in a human way and I believe sign language would be an awesome form of communication between the two species. However that would actually require contact and actual communication on another level prior to that or at least 2 willing participants of both species willing to basically sit down and develop sign language skills together... which as we know is probably not going to happen. Now as for the people killed, does anyone know how often this happens? Do Dogmen go out and frequently seek humans as a food source? Or do people usually get killed because they injured or threatened a Dogman in some form? I think dogmen are opportunistic. they'll take whatever they can get. deer, livestock, roadkill, whatever. I don't think human is their first choice but they'll take it. I think that's why the LBL incident happened. he was given an opportunity and he took it. it might have been territorial as well.
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Eoin
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Organising credible sightings in Washington. Collecting data and forwarding to National.
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Post by Eoin on Aug 18, 2019 14:18:36 GMT
I have to agree with you guys in that I don't believe that Dogmen are good or bad... they simply are being who they are both on a species level and an individual level just like humans. Most humans probably associate them with evil because 1. They didn't know that they existed and associate them with werewolves 2. Dogmen are massive and humans are quite small and weak in comparison and 3. we are looking at an apex predator which is quite possibly the greatest hunter to have lived on Earth since the dinosaurs. Also the frequency thing, I'm not an engineer (yet) nor a quantum scientist but I have been studying a bit about these things and I do agree that every living thing has a frequency and vibration. As for communicating with them, I think geometry would be an interesting take. We have heard accounts on how they sometimes make gifts for people by making geometric items out sticks and then tied together with yarn and stuff. However, I was thinking about another form of communication. On a few different accounts I heard that they actually appreciate music. One guy used to go out into the forest and play his guitar for them and they would listen in the trees nearby. My friend who claims he had numerous experiences in Colorado with them also stated that they enjoy our music and singing voices. I've never heard of the witnesses saying they heard the dogmen actually speak like a human does but if they are capable that is pretty incredible. Honestly I was thinking about sign language. I think they are very capable with their hands in a human way and I believe sign language would be an awesome form of communication between the two species. However that would actually require contact and actual communication on another level prior to that or at least 2 willing participants of both species willing to basically sit down and develop sign language skills together... which as we know is probably not going to happen. Now as for the people killed, does anyone know how often this happens? Do Dogmen go out and frequently seek humans as a food source? Or do people usually get killed because they injured or threatened a Dogman in some form? I think dogmen are opportunistic. they'll take whatever they can get. deer, livestock, roadkill, whatever. I don't think human is their first choice but they'll take it. I think that's why the LBL incident happened. he was given an opportunity and he took it. it might have been territorial as well. As far as a food source and humans I’ve heard of few and even those could be suspect. If humans really need food, they’ll eat humans so logic would dictate that if a Dogman were a true Cryptid or Preternatural the laws that govern all animal instinct would be present, no matter how highly or little advanced they may be. If “Supernatural”, then we’re in the truly unknown. I, myself, have never seen quantifiable data showing specifically that this compelling complex phenomena “is” anything but that it truly “is”. We can apply perceived profile points, but other than large and canid in appearance, we have very little that’s quantified. That’s why I have no theories and never make absolute statements regarding Dogman nature and why the phenomena is so intriguing! Oh, and communication would be wonderful! If a Cryptid or Preternatural maybe beginning as a pup!
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Post by Con on Aug 18, 2019 22:34:46 GMT
Yeah, communication would be something else! I suppose it's getting the nerves to actually stand there and try and strike up a conversation first though. Though I get the feeling that if we really were on the menu we probably wouldn't see it coming until they were right on top of us, literally.
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Post by jackstagger on Aug 20, 2019 12:12:28 GMT
I doubt direct communication is going to be very effective. I don't think dogman is humanoid, I think it's 100% canid. A normal wolf might be able to think one or two moves ahead, dogman maybe four or five, but that doesn't mean it will be good at communicating sentences with more than one or two components. It's really all about how the organism thinks and less about IQ. Physical communication like sign language or glyphs would be the most viable, just like with dogs essentially, but I don't think it would be as successful as with that signing gorilla Koko. Apes place more importance on individuality than canines, apes are free to seek their own food within a group established territory, they (mostly) are free to choose their own partners, they use facial expressions naturally, and they tend to be much more vocally elaborate. Wolves don't do any of those things, and they have a social structure where conversations/instructions go in only one direction 90% of the time.
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Eoin
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Organising credible sightings in Washington. Collecting data and forwarding to National.
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Post by Eoin on Aug 20, 2019 14:39:25 GMT
I doubt direct communication is going to be very effective. I don't think dogman is humanoid, I think it's 100% canid. A normal wolf might be able to think one or two moves ahead, dogman maybe four or five, but that doesn't mean it will be good at communicating sentences with more than one or two components. It's really all about how the organism thinks and less about IQ. Physical communication like sign language or glyphs would be the most viable, just like with dogs essentially, but I don't think it would be as successful as with that signing gorilla Koko. Apes place more importance on individuality than canines, apes are free to seek their own food within a group established territory, they (mostly) are free to choose their own partners, they use facial expressions naturally, and they tend to be much more vocally elaborate. Wolves don't do any of those things, and they have a social structure where conversations/instructions go in only one direction 90% of the time. And CoCo was very young when signing was taught. As I’ve said all I can point to is that the phenomena is in one of three categories, but none of the contact, even the gravesite story (which could have been nothing but what the gentleman interpreted to be speech and Investigations took it and ran with a theory) indicates any intent other than territorial posturing or a “leave me/this place as fast as you can. I would LOVE to sit on a stump and wave at this phenomena from across a field and have it wave back without pissing my pants, but in truth, I’m not counting any chickens before they hatch. My mother’s people were terrified of just hearing it, God knows what seeing it and interacting would do to one’s psyche and immediate state of mind.
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Post by Con on Aug 20, 2019 15:31:41 GMT
Yeah, me too Eoin, would be nice to interact even with a simple wave, but that would be terrifying nonetheless. I think since your average person rarely believes in ghosts let alone anything else, seeing something that reportedly looks like it walked straight out of Van Helsing would put the fear in the strongest of people, considering that person went from not believing in anything (or much) paranormal to "there's a werewolf right in front of me" in such a short span of time.
I think if someone wanted to go looking and even interact with this (preferably at a distance) you'd need to start smaller, maybe with a few haunted locations first. I see it as wanting to workout your upper body and instead of doing a 4kg dumbell for a while and slowly building yourself up, you jumped straight for the 40kg benchpress and hurt yourself, which takes some time to heal. Not that I wouldn't be scared, I'd more than likely be terrified, but I've already had enough encounters with odd things to know that the world is full of weird stuff, so I have that to fall back on. It's those Wendigo things I don't want to ever see though, assuming that the reports of them are true.
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Post by jackstagger on Aug 20, 2019 20:24:13 GMT
MAYBE seeing one from far off or even habilitating a younger one might be neat, still something you'd have to be careful about. I think their potential for domestication at all is very low, not to say that a specimen or pack couldn't adapt properly to slightly different lifestyles. If you imagine what the lifestyle of a dogman is compared to that of even your most experienced outdoorsman there's probably a huge difference. I think a human might be able to help one grow up, but I really doubt it would be possible to actually raise one. If I ever see a little one or a distressed one I'm going to leave it alone.
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Eoin
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Organising credible sightings in Washington. Collecting data and forwarding to National.
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Post by Eoin on Aug 21, 2019 5:31:45 GMT
Yeah, me too Eoin, would be nice to interact even with a simple wave, but that would be terrifying nonetheless. I think since your average person rarely believes in ghosts let alone anything else, seeing something that reportedly looks like it walked straight out of Van Helsing would put the fear in the strongest of people, considering that person went from not believing in anything (or much) paranormal to "there's a werewolf right in front of me" in such a short span of time. I think if someone wanted to go looking and even interact with this (preferably at a distance) you'd need to start smaller, maybe with a few haunted locations first. I see it as wanting to workout your upper body and instead of doing a 4kg dumbell for a while and slowly building yourself up, you jumped straight for the 40kg benchpress and hurt yourself, which takes some time to heal. Not that I wouldn't be scared, I'd more than likely be terrified, but I've already had enough encounters with odd things to know that the world is full of weird stuff, so I have that to fall back on. It's those Wendigo things I don't want to ever see though, assuming that the reports of them are true. Well, I grew up in a haunted house so I got started in the paranormal pretty early in life. Had no choice LOL!
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Eoin
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Organising credible sightings in Washington. Collecting data and forwarding to National.
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Post by Eoin on Aug 21, 2019 5:39:18 GMT
MAYBE seeing one from far off or even habilitating a younger one might be neat, still something you'd have to be careful about. I think their potential for domestication at all is very low, not to say that a specimen or pack couldn't adapt properly to slightly different lifestyles. If you imagine what the lifestyle of a dogman is compared to that of even your most experienced outdoorsman there's probably a huge difference. I think a human might be able to help one grow up, but I really doubt it would be possible to actually raise one. If I ever see a little one or a distressed one I'm going to leave it alone. Absolutely agree! At 2 years of age even huskies get crazy and no matter how much they look like one, as we know they’re nothing like a wolf. Hominidae Canidae (as I call them)...no chance of f2f interaction, or so I believe. On the other hand as I have nothing quantifiable to base that on, maybe we’d all be surprised. I tell you this, he’s not sleeping in the bed! Dogman crate training for sure LOL!
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Post by jackstagger on Aug 21, 2019 18:23:57 GMT
I'd be willing to raise pretty much any other animal on the NA continent except bears, wolves, or coyotes. It really comes down to what happens when they grow up and start coming up to folks back porches for handouts, or whatever other consequences of being desensitized to humans they might run into. There are places bears get killed just for poking around a campsite, wolves and coyotes get killed for practically no reason all over. No way in hell I'm teaching a bear how to forage like a bear or teaching a wolf how to hunt like a wolf, it's totally beyond my capabilities, so I'd really only be creating a misunderstood creature with no reliable way to sustain itself. I can't provide what their lifestyle needs for more than a week of my normal life. It would have to be a certain catch-22 for me to meddle with these things with any constructive goal, though I do think they can be elevated socially and intellectually. I wouldn't drown a bag of dogman puppies but if they have to depend on me for very long they'd be pretty much screwed anyway. I'd probably move to Alaska and just do my best to raise them in the wild, which would be cool and all but not really my thing just how I'd see the obligation being at all manageable.
I've always wanted a badger. I think a rescued hand-raised badger would be a fun buddy and a useful homestead enforcer.
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